ICRC Beyond The Red Vest

We sit down with Jacob Kirchner, senior strategic advisor for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Washington, DC, to unpack what neutral humanitarian work really looks like in modern wars. We connect the ICRC’s principles and legal mandate to overlooked crises like Sudan and to the human need for dignity, closure, and peace. 
• Jacob’s path from Rotary World Peace Fellow to the ICRC 
• What the ICRC does that most people never see, including forensics and support for dignified burials 
• How the Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement is structured across national societies, the federation, and the ICRC 
• Why neutrality, impartiality, and independence shape every decision 
• How the Geneva Conventions and international humanitarian law guide the work 
• Sudan’s conflict, mass displacement, and the real meaning of the cost of inaction 
• Other urgent crises that rarely stay in the headlines 
• How the ICRC works around sensitive perceptions while staying transparent 
• Visiting prisoners of war and helping resolve missing-person cases over decades 
• How helpers keep going, finding purpose and solidarity in difficult work 
If you have somebody that you think would be an absolute amazing guest, please let me know. Rotarianpod at gmail.com. Of course, tell all your friends and neighbors to get the podcast wherever you get your podcast. 

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi everyone, I'm Gwen Jones, and welcome once again to the After Newcastle Podcast, the weekly podcast where I introduce you to those combinations of people from all over the world turning their actions in fact. Well, this week, Jacob Kirchner is going to be Jacob. Well, Jacob is a representative from the International Committee of the Red Cross. In fact, he's the senior strategic advisor in Washington, D.C. That's right. This week I am beside the double to talk about the International Committee of the Red Cross. And how this person was touched, how Jacob was touched at a very early age of rotary, believe it or not. And now he is, like I said, the senior strategic advisor right there in Washington DC. Now Jacob's gonna join me, he's gonna enlighten me, and he's gonna tell me about the Red Cross, the international card, and what they're doing every single day in the most way. Around 2.7 closer, and after that. Jacob Kurtzer is with me today, and his official title, at least he's got a title, you guys. He's the senior strategic advisor in Washington, D.C. for the Red Cross. That's quite a business card, don't you think? And first of all, what an honor to have you on the show. I think everybody, all of my listeners know the Red Cross. But Jacob's gonna take a little time and talk to us about what the Red Cross is doing, where it's needed, and where is some places like, for instance, Sudan that a lot of us maybe forget about, including myself, and how the Red Cross is turning definitely their actions into impact and have for quite a few years, I would say. Jacob, welcome to the show. It's wonderful to have

Rotary Peace Fellowship To ICRC

SPEAKER_02 2:41

you.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Thank you so much. It's really a pleasure to be here. We didn't talk about this at the beginning, but I hope we will later.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Uh oh, you're got your gotcha and your host.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

I wanted to say I was very privileged and lucky to have had one of Rotary's World Peace Fellowships. I studied in Brisbane, Australia in 2010 and 2011. And so anytime I have the opportunity to engage with Rotary or Rotarians, the first thing I always want to do is say thank you because that that experience which enabled me to get my master's was was really an exceptional experience for me. And in addition to the educational experience I had and the work experience I got through that program, I also got to learn quite a bit about Rotary and Rotary International and the work that it does. And so I do hope we can talk a little bit about that later. But I just wanted to start with a quick thank you to you. I know that the contributions from each and every Rotarian go to support that program and many others. So just start with an expression of gratitude.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Oh, well, thank you. Right off the bat. No, that's that's wonderful. And so that that almost seems like a precursor to say you were a peace fellow, now working for the Red Cross, it was just like this natural progression in your life. Does that that sound about right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yeah, you know, the the way that fellowship program works, it's you know, it's early career. And so prior to to the fellowship, I had the opportunity to work uh in Congress. I in even in college, I volunteered at an organization called the American Anti-Slavery Group. And that informed some of my work um in Congress, where I had taken an interest and was given the opportunity through my congressional office to learn about the humanitarian sector a little bit. I I visited Haiti twice in the early 2000s. You know, we worked a little bit on the disaster response in Indonesia after the terrible tsunami. That was a was the specific impact placed in in Indonesia. And then I worked for Refugees International, uh an NGO based in Washington, and it was off of that experience that I was able to apply in and be accepted into the fellowship program. And, you know, the fellowship program then gave me some of the you know academic credentials and the network that I was able to use when I joined the International Committee of the Red Cross for the first time in 2011. And so there's certainly a, you know, it was, you know, it was like a booster, right? You know, I had been doing some of this work already, and then I I was able to get that master's degree, take some time out of the working world to study and reflect on some of the things that I had already done and use that to inform my future work with ICRC and others.

Dignity For The Dead And Forensics

SPEAKER_02 5:29

So what makes somebody like you? I mean, I I I mean, does it did you have parents that were very caring? Were you always like the kid that was saving the squirrels that fell out of the tree? Were you always the I mean, because that's a long time. That is a a very storied career and it's still going. Were you always were your family always kind of this type of thing? It just was inbred in you to be this way.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

So it's an interesting question. I was raised, my father worked for the U.S. government in the Foreign Service, and so we had the opportunity to travel overseas. So I think there was already um an inclination towards international, you know, we had an international gaze, right? Um looking and seeing what happens overseas and and having a real understanding that even if it's not immediately obvious, what's happening over there does impact our lives. As a as a Foreign Service officer, as a diplomat, also very much focused on on the pursuit of peace, of you know, negotiations between, you know, different different parties that were in conflict and trying to pursue peace. But you know, that's that was kind of the obvious thing. But one thing that in my childhood, I I think a lot more about some of the things that my mother did. You know, there's the obvious diplomat part, but my mother was very involved in her community and she took on some charitable endeavors, which were you know complex and complicated. And one of the things that she specifically did was she she worked with a group of people that took care of people's bodies after they passed away so that they could be buried consistent with the religious tradition. And that that kind of work, it's you know, it's unseen for more.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Very much so.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

It's very, very difficult. I mean, you know, physically and emotionally, that's a difficult task to go in and and and clean a body of someone who's passed away. But it's also in some ways so it's it's so important to the loved one. And it's a very important thing. It's it's intimate, but you think about when people are are experiencing their worst, their worst moment, they've just lost a loved one, to know that there's a community of people around who are going to care not for the living, but for the deceased, so that they can be buried with dignity, that they can be buried in accordance with your cultural or religious traditions. And and that's something that always stuck with me that that she did that volunteer work. And I I've been thinking about it a lot recently in the context of my work with the ICRC. So that's the acronym I'll use for my Red Cross. And we could talk about the different Red Crosses later. Um this is one of the areas of humanitarian work that that this organization does that I think is really, you know, special isn't is a weird word to use for it, but I think is really incredible. Is we have this expertise in handling of mortal remains and in forensics. So it's about training and equipping local communities for how to deal with dead bodies in their context. It's about supporting the infrastructure of those communities to make sure that people can be buried with dignity. It's about helping people keep records of where people are buried in the situation of armed conflict so that their loved ones will know that they won't be forgotten or they won't be lost. And this kind of forensics work, this kind of work with mortal remains or dead bodies that we do, you know, like you say, it's it's it's complex, it's emotional, it's intimate, but it's, you know, for for us, it's it's as important as providing food or water, is also making sure that that humans, that people are being treated with dignity because it's so important to their families, it's so important to their communities, and also we know that it is one of the stepping stones to to peaceful resolution of conflict is to know, is to not have this people go missing, is to not have people treated in a way that's that's not dignified. And so we really we see it as a stepping stone for peace. And even to this day, the ICRC, using our special capacity as a neutral intermediary, we're still returning bodies between parties that had conflict. So there are still within the last few years, there were exchanges of mortal remains between Iran and Iraq dating back to the war in 1980. There's still work happening in the Balkans from that terrible conflict to try to identify people and close that chapter and let families move on knowing where their loved ones are and that they've had that opportunity to be buried in dignity.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Well, first of all, Jacob, I think that's stunning because I don't think the average person has any idea that this is the Red Cross and the International Red Cross. Because I think when people think of the Red Cross, I think of those great little reds, those like great little red vests, much like the Rotarian vests. You know, we all wear these vests, right? And away you guys go getting food and shelter if there's something that goes wrong. I think this is a whole part of the Red Cross that I don't think a lot of people, I will throw myself under the bus to say, I had no idea that this is what the Red Cross. And if memory serves me, right, this kind of goes back to the beginnings of the Red Cross. If I if and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the modern day dog tags that our military use, I believe was started in the Civil War by the beautiful lady, I believe, that started the Red Cross, the whole idea of marking bodies to find out where they came from so their loved ones could have them. Is that is that right? Am I getting that little history nibit right? Snippet?

The Red Cross Movement Explained

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yeah. Uh there's the there's the Clara Barton element of her role with the with the American Red Cross. And again, so if you if you take it back to the the historic foundations of the Red Cross now Red Crescent movement, because that's kind of how we talk about the different components.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

I think, especially in the United States, we think of the people in the red in the red vests, and that would be American Red Cross. Okay. You give blood, you wave it down.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

So basically what you're looking at is three different component parts of the Red Cross and Red Crescent movement. So in every country, the first component part is that in every country we have what we call a national society. So in the United States, it's the American Red Cross, our friends to the North, the Canadian Red Cross. But we also have, you know, the Colombian Red Cross, and in the Middle East, you have the Yemeni Red Crescent Society, and then Miyan.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Red Crescent. Okay. I like it. I like it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

And then each country has its own national society, and the national societies are all independent organizations, but they carry out this kind of humanitarian work.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

They have a common belief system.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Exactly. And I'll talk about that in a second. Then you have a federation of all these national societies, the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent. And then you have the ICRC, the International Committee of the Red Cross. The ICRC is a voluntary independent organization based in Geneva, Switzerland. And we have our mandate is written into the Geneva Conventions. So all the states in the world have signed the Geneva Conventions. And in that document, it gives the ICRC the responsibility and the authority to do a couple of things. The first is to respond to humanitarian needs in situations of armed conflict. The red fests.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

So, you know, so that's what you would see on the on the nightly news in, you know, in Sudan or elsewhere. You would see ICRC colleagues with our with our logo. It's a little bit different. It has it has a circle around the cross. And that's where, you know, that's the organization that acts in situations of armed conflict, wars between states or between two different parties. One of the interesting things about the network is we always try to work internationally with our national society partners. So that's always going to be the organization that we'll work with primarily because we're part of this network. And the network is based on a bunch of principles. So we talk about in the ICRC, we use an acronym. There's a lot of acronyms that work.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Same with Rotary. Yeah, we got them.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

So we we call it Niha, right? So it's neutral, independent, impartial, humanitarian action, right? And neutrality, impartiality, independence, humanity, those are some of the core principles of the Red Cross and Red Crescent movement. There are three others that are unity, voluntary service, and universality. And those principles, they inform the totality of the movement. And so those principles really guide our work. And they're complicated and they're oftentimes misunderstood, you know, in contentious environments or in fast-moving environments. People don't understand the concept of neutrality or what does it mean to be impartial?

SPEAKER_02 15:07

But to have no opinion.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Yeah. Well, we have opinions. Well, yeah. Oh, everybody has opinions. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

We all have opinions. Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

You know, we prefer to do our opinion sharing quietly, right? So if we if we have a view on something, we would rather raise it directly with the affected parties. But the those principles guide our work, and they're what allows us to do a lot of this really complicated humanitarian work in difficult places around the world, like Sudan or elsewhere.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

So, and and I know when uh you reached out to me to talk about Sudan, I definitely want to talk about Sudan. I think this is probably an aha to a lot of people because we are, especially, I mean, I'm based here in the United States, but there is Red Crosses, as you said, or Red Crescents. I love that. That's awesome. All over the world. I had no idea there were three branches. I just thought they were all kind of like fellow Rotarians, except y'all wear red and we wear blue. But I also know you're in Washington, DC. So I now I I my partner uh family, uh, mother worked for the Kennedy administration and father worked for NSA. So inside the Beltway is the most international district, I feel, pretty much in the world, as far as you know, the movers and shakers of the world. And I'm not even talking about the White House.

Independence From Governments And Funding

SPEAKER_02 16:40

I'm talking about around just the city of Washington, D.C. and the people that work there. And the Red Cross, how much part of the Red Cross is governmental? Or are you independent from our governments?

SPEAKER_00 16:58

So we are we are completely independent. Um the ICRC, and again, that's a core, it's a core principle of our work. But a second, a second reality is a lot of our money comes from governments. Um a lot of our contributions come from states. And for us that's critical because states are the signers of the Geneva Conventions. You know, countries are the ones who have agreed to this set of doc, you know, this set of principles, this document, including the elements of it which give us the authority to carry out our work. And so there's a little bit of an element of seeking those contradictions with states so that we can carry out our work. What we try to make sure is, again, we we do the work in an impartial way. And so that's you know, what is the greatest need and how do we do the work without without giving preference to citizenship or ethnicity? It's where is the greatest need and how do we carry out the work that we need to do in a way that's consistent with our principles of independence, impartiality, and neutrality. And it's really, really complicated. But part of the reason we have this office here in Washington is so that we can have a conversation with the government here about our work. We want to be completely transparent. We want, you know, we're not hiding anything. What we do is is very visible, and we want to make sure that everyone understands it. And so we do. We have a really important conversation with a lot of different elements of the government, from the Department of Defense slash war to the Department of State to Congress, where these are the things that we're concerned about, these are the things that we're working on. Thank you for the support that's been given. Here are some of our ambitions in the future. And here's why we think it's important that, you know, not just the United States government, but also the American people understand our work and continue to support it because we really do believe in our humanitarian mission. We believe in the need to respond to the basic requirements of all people. But we also think it's not just the right thing to do, but we also think it's the right thing to do for peace. It's the right thing to do for a greater prosperity. And our president has spoken a lot about this. We we talk about in the Red Cross and the ICRC, we talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

It's the president of the Recross, by the way. Not the president, because I don't think the other guy in DC there has talked about you guys once, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Our president, President Liana Spilaric, she talks a lot about IHL and peace. IHL is

How The Red Cross Began

SPEAKER_00 19:33

international humanitarian law. What you would hear colloquially referred to as the laws of war, the laws of armed conflict. So this is the Geneva Conventions. This is kind of the frameworks that's that should guide the way a military carries out its operations. And and our belief, and she has spoken about this extensively, is that the way you fight impacts the way that that the war ends. And the way that these wars end impacts the ability to a peaceful future.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

And so And that getting back, going all the way back to the beginning of this, getting those loved ones back.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Yeah. So less. So yeah, so going back to the beginning, sorry if I'm if I'm going long here. No, you're no, no, go for it. Going back to the beginning, the way that the the whole Red Cross from Request and Movement started, I forgot where the question even started. Okay, we're happy to do an old time.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Just a whole you and I are having a conversation and letting thousands of people listen in. It's all good.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Yeah, it's great. Hello, new friends. Um the way the way that it started was the Swiss businessman observed a battle in the Second Italian War. And what he saw was that the people who were injured or killed, there was no one, there was no one to care for them. And so he wrote this book where he outlined this problem and identified a number of solutions. The first was the creation of these voluntary groups that would treat the sick and wounded. The second was an identifying symbol, in this case, the cross being the reverse of the Swiss flag. And the third was an agreement between the parties that those groups that are easily distinguishable by the symbols be protected and be allowed to carry out this work, treating the wounded or caring or caring for the wounded or taking care of those bodies. So there really is this element from the get-go of those who are suffering the most and having this kind of agreement amongst parties to allow the work to take place.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Let me ask you this then.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Well, it started the the both elements started kind of simultaneously. Simultaneously. Okay. This this gentleman, Henri, his name is Henri Dunant. You know, he he called for the creation of national societies, right? These these, and at the beginning, they really. were auxiliaries to the military. Right. But simultaneously he formed this committee in in Switzerland, which is now the International Committee of the Red Cross. So from the get-go, there were these, there were this two-pronged thing of one, a Red Cross or Red Crescent, or in Israel it's the Magenda Vida Dome, the Red Star of David, you know, these national societies, and then separately this international entity that would also work outside of national borders.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

And I think it it doesn't go without saying to my Rotarians that are listening to me is that this is a very similar to Rotary and the United Nations. For those of you who haven't caught up on your Rotary history as we're learning this Red Cross history, the UN is based on a bill of human rights that was put together by Rotarians. And then that that was made into what we now know as the UN, where we bring human dignity. So look, we've gotten all the way back to you being a peace fellow, which was like the first five minutes of this whole conversation. We'll make it all go together. Don't worry, Dick. So where you needed we we've talked about the fundamentals of where you guys came from. We've talked about you and where you came from to get here. Now where

Sudan And The Cost Of Inaction

SPEAKER_02 23:21

are we going? And the first thing that you came you wanted to talk to me about was Sudan and and I'm here to tell you I don't think about Sudan and I apologize to anyone who is from Sudan who was even hearing my voice perhaps in that country. But you're saying we should be paying more attention to this beautiful country. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah you know to today this week marks three years of the conflict starting in Sudan and what we see is that you know the the lack of action on the part of the diplomatic political sphere continues to cause really great suffering.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Well they don't have any oil I assume they don't have any natural resources I assume they they are mostly a rural agricultural country I assume. And so and this is you know you can all send me the hate mail Jacob didn't know I'm saying this. Yeah but but they have no value to save and those are my words but I think they go out of the circumference of the news cycle because where is Sudan and what is Sudan and a three year conflict what conflict? I think that's where people would really start.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yeah. Well what I would you know and I I respect the listeners you know so you know a flag you know some of this is is hard to hear right 11 million people in Sudan have been displaced moved from their homes four million people have crossed borders seeking safety in neighboring countries Chad, Egypt Ethiopia.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

You know is this a civil war? What happened three years ago I think I should back up and ask then Jacob what is going on in Sudan that has started now 1224 36 months ago?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

I mean the the history here is is quite long and complex. Okay. Civil wars is terminology, you know, we as a legalistic organization I mentioned you know we have the IHL component we have the humanitarian component we use we sometimes use different language. So what we would call it is a non-international armed conflict.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Okay. So I mean it's just in itself.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah and and and sometimes you know the the legal descriptions they they don't do justice to the humanitarian impact. They don't do justice to what's happening. They're frameworks that we use to make certain decisions about our work, about our engagement with the different sides. But yeah you have you know to to keep it quite simple you have you have a split between the armed forces and and the political leadership that's unfortunately spiraled in such a way that you now have you know really devastating human consequences for the men, women and children across the country. You know we've seen and and again you know I want to just sort of a tiny little caveat here which is what you're hearing is the importance of neutrality right what you're hearing is you know we have views on how things started and and and so on and so forth. But for us that kind of discussion about where things started, how did it break down you know whose fault is it that kind of stuff right that's that's for the UN right there is a political entity that exists that should be mediating and negotiating these conflicts. What we want to do is raise awareness of the cost of inaction. What we want to do is raise awareness of the human consequences the humanitarian impact of that conflict we want to we want to raise the flag of humanity raise the flag of the people of Sudan and say hey government leaders, diplomats, politicians, you really need to put your best brains on this because what we're seeing is so devastating people are suffering not just from the direct attacks but they're suffering from the attacks on infrastructure the essential infrastructure of life you know we take some things for granted water electricity housing we're talking to each other in two different cities on the internet. Internet right connectivity is a huge issue for people when when your life has become revolved around the ability to connect to people to use a smartphone you know banking systems in some places and all of a sudden you lose connectivity that can be that can have a huge domino effect on on people's lives. And now we're also seeing that the conflict is impacted by what's happening in the Middle East there's a rise in fuel prices there's a rise in food prices and so and so we have this very very large conflict and it actually is an important a really important place geostrategically right it is a very significant it's a large country it's right in the middle there's a lot of there's a lot of interests there but you know for us what we're talking about is you know the the human cost of war the human cost of inaction and you know one of the things that we take a particular interest in is our volunteers you know the the Red Cross the ICRC staff but also the staff of the you know the Sudanese Red Crescent Society and and we know 22 22 volunteers have lost their lives already trying to help others since since the war began and that's that's really tragic when when the helpers themselves get caught up and get hurt or or killed tragically it has a huge impact on the ability to continue to respond. And so you know when we when we approach someone like you and and your audience you know what we're really trying to do is to make you aware educate absolutely to talk about that humanitarian impact and encourage you to take that next step read a little bit more talk to you know engage in in whatever ways you can and and try to think about how to help as best as possible.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

And I think we as I mean Rotarians are incredibly generous. They are you know rotaries in more countries than the UN so we're out there we're doing stuff but I do have to admit we do the pretty stuff we need a well over here and we need education and books over here. And what you're saying is that the Red Cross is really getting their hands dirty in a totally neutral way. And again I don't think a lot of my listeners think of the

Other Overlooked Crises Worldwide

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Red Cross that way or in the in the initials that you say I see I see RC. RC yeah okay and because it yeah no it's okay and I love it. But you bring up this you said cost of inaction so where are some other areas besides the Sudan that right now we're having a huge impact of this cost this very expensive cost of inaction because when you're saying cost of inaction you're not saying money what you're talking about is is lives is that right we're talking about we're talking about lives and and and I assume it's from different places. So in Sudan we have an armed conflict in Haiti you could have something totally different. In the Congo or Malawi or some of these other Central African countries there could be totally different things but all of them you're coming at nonpartisan non-religious non-nothing just there as a humanitarian force.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yeah so you've you've mentioned a couple of the places that are top of mind for us are not top of mind for the news right because there are certain places in the world that are top of mind for the news but I'm glad you mentioned Haiti you know it's it's in our it's in our hemisphere devastating impacts of violence you know in primarily in the capital but elsewhere we're paying attention to Afghanistan and Pakistan you know some violence there you know we're we're following the situations in in in eastern Congo we're following the situation in Myanmar and and to a lesser extent the Philippines but we also still work in Ukraine. We also are still working throughout the Middle East and so there's a lot of these conflicts and again you know there's no there's no expectation here that the you know that the average listener be fully aware of of the total the whole tapestry of humanitarian humanitarian because it might be dizzying and very depressing it's dizzy and it is it is depressing. But I would also say you know you you were I I think some sort of self-deprecatingly dismissive of the pretty work of of Rotary and you know look familiar with shelter box I'm familiar with the polio campaign. And you know you think about what were the what were some of the last places where the polio work was being done right in the Haiti we were in Afghanistan I talk about on the show all the time that the Taliban were our were our bodyguards when we went in and why and why is that right and why is that it's because you were transparent with what you were doing right you were doing it for everyone it was it was beneficial to all concerned ah look at you quoting that and and I think so I think there really is you can draw an analogy to the way we work right which is often very it's very misunderstood and it's complicated. People will say well why is the Red Cross why are we giving you know why is the Red Cross working in that place? You know uh why are they there?

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Yeah why are they there?

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Like what's the we may have a we have a preconceived you know we have a we have a perception of that place. Why are they working with that group? And again the way that we work this new this neutral political identity this impartial approach this independent is for the outcome right it's for it's for us to be able to deliver the humanitarian assistance to provide that basic support to victims or people who are suffering from armed conflict you know without without prejudging their politics or their identity it's just to it's really just to help. And and so it's really so I do think there's there's um something analogous in the way that Rotary has carried out its work with the way that the ICRC carries out its work you know this idea of you know having a mission having an approach being transparent about it and yeah it means working in in complicated places but again by sticking to our principles we're able to we're able to do that humanitarian work oftentimes where where many others are unable

Rotary Parallels And Coordination Limits

SPEAKER_00 34:33

to and we just think that's a that's a critical component of you know the the overall picture today.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

So how does Rotary just there are there actual programs where Rotary has worked with the ICRC look at me I got the ICRC there. Is there actual actually can you think of places I mean because right now there's gonna be Rotarians that are hearing my voice going oh my God the parallels are just like crazy. Why aren't we in the same places?

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Do we actually play each other sandbox? I regret that I haven't interrogated this more in in greater detail. Well we may have to take it off the show then you're fired. One thing I you know I go back to is precisely for that for that identity for that reason you know that perception of neutrality which is so important we tend not to work with you know we don't work with anybody really we really prioritize working with national societies so the the Red Crest up to the Red Cross or the Megan or whoever it might be but there are places where we work alongside right and so I I think I I might be wrong but you know vaccination campaigns, the polio campaign, like there may have been interaction or communication in some context. We certainly want to know what everyone is doing and we want to make sure we're not duplicating efforts. So if Rotary or any other NGO is in a context you know delivering humanitarian assistance or delivering you know shelter box or you know providing that service that's a really important conversation for us to have that dialogue so that we know that it's being done and we can focus our efforts on something else.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Well yeah and I I do know that shelter you know I if you look at some of those pictures at shelter box you see there's there's a surprising how many blue vests and red vests are around there handing those out. I mean because it they both are going for the greater good which is you know shelter. Yeah yeah so basic human need so I and now that everybody knows the Sudan and so many other places are there some places where you're not working at as much anymore? Do we have some some highlights in this world of we were here for a very long time and now we've moved out because our need is you know do we have some good news oh you're having to think too long there Jacob I there is there is good there are good news stories.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

You know I I again I regret that I don't have them at the tip of my tongue but I do think of course you know we talked about earlier talked about the enduring work in the Balkans right the search for missing right when that work started it was acute right it was we were doing you know extensive humanitarian relief you know kind of the the Maslow's hierarchy the the food the shelter that that kind of stuff right exactly and now we're still doing the work but it's it's a it's at a different level right it's now it's can we help find people who have gone missing? Can we help identify bodies and reconnect those families so that their loved ones have closure right so I think that's an example of where the work has shifted over time. And you know it's really it's it's important you know that we're able to to do to go from the acute to the kind of the more the more longstanding work. So that that I think would be one example. Instead of the emergency the aftermath yeah and it's still a humanitarian problem right for those for those families for the whose loved ones are still missing that's that's really that remains a a pain it's you know it's a void it's something that you want to help resolve and and that's a really important part of our work that draws on our network is this you know reconnecting families you know helping helping resolve cases of the missing so it's a it's a critical part of our work and something we take quite seriously I think it it's kind of an ad juxtaposition of what people hopefully after they listen to this show think about when they think about the Red Cross because I like I said I for one would have no idea that there are thousands of people all over the world with red crosses or red crescents or red stars of David that are after that part of the war the bringing the bringing people home and and I find it fascinating you know that our military and our governments have been trying to bring home remains to each other militarily for decades.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

But there was a whole bunch of people so let me ask this question then if you are doing these remains are are you more leaning into the idea of the civilians are you really more of the civilian remains or are you more you kind of like stay out of the military the military remains are up to the military parties where after what unfortunately that conflict did to the rest of the world with is that a fair statement or do you do anybody?

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Do you take care of anything No I think I think it's the second part. You know a lot of the initial Geneva conventions and in fact in the initial the initial standing up of the ICRC it was very much focused on the combatants. It was focused on on the soldiers and and the fighters right and so that work still carries forward. One of the things we do you know that's that's that is well known is visit prisoners of war, right? Because the Geneva Conventions have rules about how you treat a prisoner of war. And so visiting you know POWs or places of detention is the kind of the terminology we use is a very important part of our work. And so again there is in fact a very significant focus on the fighters but also in other contexts where tragically civilians have been killed or gone missing we certainly carry out that work with the same rigor and and and and effort. But you know I I mentioned earlier you know the Iran-Iraq war that's the return of of of of soldiers right of okay and so it's very much you know both elements and are we work on both elements and and all of it's taken seriously because you know that's that's just the nature of the work and the nature of the conventions and the nature of that legal framework that underpins our work and and this idea that the humanitarian principles the humanitarian response applies to everyone.

SPEAKER_02 41:09

So I have a couple more questions for you and Jacob I'm I'm really honored to that that you've came on the show. And I think a lot of people are probably borderline gobsmacked at the whole idea that this is a whole kind of different

Prisoners Of War And Missing Persons

SPEAKER_02 41:24

idea of what we think of at the Red Cross or the ICRC as why I'm learning the lingo. But I I guess my question is is a little bit more intimate towards you and that is you you every single day go into that office and the people who are watching this on YouTube you got your little headset on and you go and you literally spend every day trying to help people through man's inhumanity to man.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Do you do you take some really good vacations or is there a way you find actually inspiration from the little things like how do you how do you keep this work up I think I I can only speak for myself but I you know I I draw a lot of inspiration from my colleagues I've had the the opportunity to work for ICRC overseas in a number of different a number of different places I worked in in a in a variety of our of our other delegations I now have the luxury of of doing this work from Washington DC from a nice air conditioned office. And when I've been in those places and I talked to our colleagues who are you know nationals of the country that we're working in they take inspiration from their friends and family from the people who aren't working for the ICRC who are also trying to to help you know their communities in in whatever way they can. So I think you know first and foremost I think it's I I you know I I don't use the word lightly but I do think it's a it's a privilege to to be able to do this work. You know and knowing that there's so many people who are who are doing it. And it can be it can be draining and you know I do think that one thing there you know you don't have to you don't have to say they have it worse right and therefore I I am not entitled to complain. But I do think having some perspective is is important. You know when I was in my last assignment I also knew that there was an end date right and I was able to come home or to go somewhere else. And so I think maintaining that allowing yourself to feel empathy and to feel pain and and so and so is is important and maintaining perspective is also important. And you know I don't know I don't know if it's considered try it anymore but you know you think about Mr. Rogers and the look for the help Right. You know, you you think of it's looking at at the the picture and seeing the amount of conflict and the amount of of pain can be very discouraging. But you, you know, it's a little bit of you know a shift of perspective to say this is this is happening, and there are still people who are waking up every day saying, How can I help someone else? And I think drawing, you know, drawing motivation based on that is is really important. And look, we have people in this organization care quite a bit. And when you care a lot, you can have disagreements. You can have you can have arguments about what's the best path path forward. But the level of solidarity among staff, I think, is really is really incredible. And then when you say I have the opportunity to contribute in some small way to this to this effort, I think it's, you know, I just like I said, I sort of consider myself lucky more than anything. And you know, I think about when anything, you know, when there's when there's when there's a newsworthy event, you know, you what you'll hear is people asking you so you know when I'm when I'm in in in my last assignment, I was based in in Tel Aviv, in Israel covering Israel and and the occupied territories. So Israel, West Bank, Gaza, Gulan. And you know, when when when there would be something, you know, there would be an impact of a missile or whatever in Tel Aviv, you know, I would get messages from my colleagues in Gaza saying, Are you okay? We're so worried about you, right? And you know, when the conflict in Iran starts, the colleagues in my office are messaging their peers in Tehran saying, Are you okay? We're worried about you. And then, you know, in Washington, when we see something happens, there's really this sense of solidarity, and we are we're one team, we're all working together. And so, you know, to be part of that is is you know, it's it's actually quite incredible.

Staying Human In Hard Work

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Well, Jacob, I all I can say is that someday I would love you to be unemployed, and that we wouldn't need a Red Cross, and we wouldn't need an international the I C R C to, you know, in a perfect world, we're not hunting down remains and we're not but until then to know that there are people like yourself and the people all over the world the helpers, thank you, Mr. Rogers, it makes me feel better. Last question. Because I say a couple more questions, it could be two, it could be eight, but this is gonna be your last one, I promise. And that is how can we help you? How can is it is it given blood? Is it given a check? Is it donating stuff? Is it all the above? Is it I I know in our foundation you can give to Polio Plus or you can give to Peace and the Peace Project. So if I wanted to help in the Red Cross or the ICRC, what do I do?

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Yeah, look, I think, you know, I forget the direct translation, but you know, each in their own way, each according to their own means, right? I think um you know the the first and and most important thing is I think we, you know, we use the terminology before about you know, forgotten crisis or you know, we live in an attention universe, the attention economy. And I think, you know, uh again, not every not every citizen of the world needs to to have uh an in-depth knowledge of every humanitarian crisis. But taking that time to understand what's going on in some of these places in the world and you know, paying attention and and engaging and thinking about it is critical. You know, I often in in Washington we do a lot of you know coffee chats, uh, you know, especially with um people trying to get into the field or whatever. And I say, you know, a lot of this it it all starts at home, right? And so I do think you know, I I can see a direct connection between between volunteering at home and and improving the health of your own community and and the impact that that that has globally. But you know, I think you know, for people who are more you know engaged politically, encouraging your elected officials to pay attention to care, I think is really important. But projects that Rotary itself does, like you know, the polio campaign, like the peace and efforts, like Shelter Box, I mean, I think, you know continuing to invest that energy, right? Again, the entirety of the humanitarian sector is is struggling, both because of the amount of of conflicts that there are and the amount of need and and the economic pressures and so on and so forth. And so I think continuing the work that you're already doing and filling that gap and and making sure that those projects are are carried out and and that you know the people, the other organizations that are working in those places know about them so that the resources can be directed elsewhere. I think that's really, really critical because you know there's there's more than enough work for everyone, and we all want to be unemployed. Um But but yeah, I mean, you know, sort of keeping up what you're doing, paying attention to what we're doing, calling us, asking us questions if you've got them. We'd happy to answer them. And then um, yeah, you know, trying to trying to find a way towards uh towards a more you know peaceful and and beautiful future.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Yeah. So everybody, Jacob, uh Kurtzer from Washington, D.C. See, good stuff is happening in Washington, D.C. people. And it's a beautiful city, and the cherry blossoms are probably out as we speak.

How Listeners Can Help And Closing

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Um, my friend, it's been an honor to talk to you, and I thank you so much for being on the show, and I thank you so much for really, you know, opening, I hope, not only my eyes, but a lot of eyes all over the world. Thank you so much. I'm excited. I see RC. Um that's what I'm using from now on, sir. I promise.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. And for the people who are listening at home, thanks for listening and thanks for your work as well.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Wow, Jacob, thank you. And hey, shout out to us Rotarians. Jacob was a Peace Fellow. I mean, how cool is that? How cool is that? I am so honored to uh have Peace Fellows under the Rotary belt, and uh nice job. And again, I know I was joking, but you know, inside the beltway gets a lot of rub here in America, and uh it's nice to know that there's some people doing some pretty amazing things. And I have to say, it was really quite eye-opening. The many levels of the Red Cross. Now, Jacob worked for the International Committee of the Red Cross, but that there are so many other Red Crosses, you know. I mean, they're not always a cross, as we found out. And how wonderful was it and how very important it was for Jacob to remind us that there is work going on all over the world, whether it makes the headlines or not. So, uh Jacob gave us a little thing to do, and that was uh, as Mr. Rogers says, look for the helpers. Look for the helpers. That's a good one to remember. He also said the cost of inaction. So here at the Action to Impact podcast, we want you to remember that some places in this world have a huge cost for inaction. Again, thank you, Jacob, from the International Committee of the Red Cross, right there in Washington, D.C., for joining me on the show today. If you have somebody that you think would be an absolute amazing guest, please let me know. Rotarianpod at gmail.com. Of course, tell all your friends and neighbors to get the podcast wherever you get your podcast. And until next week, again, thank you, Jacob. Amazing conversation. And thank you, everyone out there, for listening until next week. Take care of yourself and the world around you, and we'll hear you or see you on our video cast on the Action to Impact Podcast with me, Gwen Jones. Have a wonderful week, everybody. We'll talk to you soon.